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| [21:40:05] | <noecc> | LunkRat: Proper permissions can be found @ http://community.aegirproject.org/node/77 |
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| [02:13:41] | <Layke> | Hey, is there some kind of API that I can use to automatically clone sites/create from my own website? Rather than having to go through the Aegir administration? |
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| [02:59:34] | <bgm> | Layke: you can probably check the hostmaster code to see how it creates tasks, and use that in your code |
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| [08:03:18] | <anarcat> | omega8cc: ping |
| [08:05:50] | <omega8cc> | anarcat: pong |
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| [08:17:08] | <anarcat> | omega8cc: i replied to your recent post, but i figured it could be good to talk directly to resolve some issues |
| [08:18:40] | <omega8cc> | anarcat: do you suggest that we don't talk directly in comments there? ;) |
| [08:19:11] | <anarcat> | no, i think we should document the issues |
| [08:19:22] | <anarcat> | but maybe it would be faster to shake down some issues here |
| [08:19:45] | <anarcat> | for example, i believe that storing timing and gzip config info in the server config file is a bad idea, because it requires forking provision to do any change |
| [08:19:55] | <anarcat> | i am curious as to why you think the exact opposite :) |
| [08:20:31] | <anarcat> | i would also like to know when you are going to propose the changes in question |
| [08:21:00] | <anarcat> | i have internet access only for a few more minutes here, probably for 10 minutes or so |
| [08:21:17] | <anarcat> | then i am offline until i take the plane, so i figured it would be important to prioritize and clarify things before i work further on this |
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| [08:21:33] | <anarcat> | specificall, i wish to work on the nginx debian package and wonder if you did any work on this |
| [08:21:53] | <omega8cc> | gzipping is there by default to support some features/modules like advagg and boost |
| [08:22:25] | <anarcat> | i don't think that boost require gzip support |
| [08:22:57] | <anarcat> | at least we don't configure that on the apache side, and i don't think it would be fair to do so there |
| [08:25:11] | <omega8cc> | did I mention that Nginx config is optimized for best possible performance and share our experience while keeping it as generic as possible? I don't really understand this "simplify" effort here, even I understand the "tools, not policy" approach |
| [08:25:32] | <omega8cc> | some settings could be moved away |
| [08:25:59] | <omega8cc> | but do you have any answer on "why?" other than "tools, not policy" ideology? |
| [08:26:59] | <omega8cc> | take the microcaching as an example, what is the reason to remove this feature added in response to community request? |
| [08:27:02] | <anarcat> | i do not believe there is a configuration that can be optimised for best performance under any circumstances |
| [08:27:18] | <omega8cc> | it is possible with Nginx |
| [08:27:26] | <anarcat> | i dispute that claim |
| [08:27:54] | <omega8cc> | I'm open to arguments, not opinions |
| [08:27:57] | <anarcat> | and while i do not have strong experience with nginx, i have enough experience with other systems to believe that is a general claim that can be made on any system |
| [08:28:12] | <anarcat> | you do not seem to be open to anything right now :) |
| [08:28:29] | <anarcat> | you have basically pushed aside the core of my argument as being ideological |
| [08:28:37] | <anarcat> | so i do not know if it is useful to talk further about this |
| [08:29:47] | <anarcat> | i don't understand why gzip configuration cannot be configured by the admin, on the side, why it needs aegir's help |
| [08:30:19] | <anarcat> | there are tons of modules and tons of configurations that can be added to the webservers that aegir configures |
| [08:30:22] | <anarcat> | one could configure mod_proxy in apache for example, to do funky things like nginx caching |
| [08:30:32] | <anarcat> | which have showed to provide performance improvements under circumstances |
| [08:31:00] | <anarcat> | but if i want to use varnish with nginx, i should be able to do that, in which case nginx caching should be turned off |
| [08:31:25] | <mig5> | ^^ that one is also a personal pain point for me :) |
| [08:31:32] | <anarcat> | i seem to be seeing packet loss and high latency here again, i am sorry if i have missed your replies |
| [08:31:42] | <mig5> | i don't know how to turn off the nginx caching and that frustrates me. |
| [08:31:55] | <mig5> | reading the discussion now |
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| [08:33:59] | <omega8cc> | mig5: why to disable 5s microcaching? if you need to disable it, put header('X-Accel-Expires: 0'); in the global.inc |
| [08:34:51] | <anarcat> | because 5s may be too much latency for some sites |
| [08:34:52] | <omega8cc> | anarcat: I think that my commits (and some docs) will better explain what I mean |
| [08:34:54] | <anarcat> | or not enough |
| [08:35:05] | <anarcat> | maybe i want a 60s cache |
| [08:35:09] | <anarcat> | i want to be able to configure that |
| [08:35:16] | <anarcat> | this is what "tools not policy" is all about |
| [08:35:50] | <anarcat> | omega8cc: i am happy to wait for your commits and documentation before discussing this further |
| [08:36:01] | <omega8cc> | listen, it is not a problem to me to remove most of that stuff, and leave just generic nginx config, matching Apache zero-config |
| [08:36:04] | <anarcat> | i will therefore not work on the issues i have mentionned and wait for your suggestions |
| [08:36:44] | <omega8cc> | but I would be interested to see how you plan to support those features which you prefer to remove |
| [08:37:18] | <anarcat> | omega8cc: a simple include file, or a contrib module can accomplish this |
| [08:37:30] | <anarcat> | omega8cc: the same way we support drupal caching but do not set it by default anymore |
| [08:37:55] | <omega8cc> | you can't configure the cache TTL in the config include, did you know that? |
| [08:38:17] | <anarcat> | sorry which cache ttl? |
| [08:38:19] | <omega8cc> | you can override nginx default on the php level |
| [08:38:28] | <omega8cc> | microcache |
| [08:38:34] | <anarcat> | the nginx microcache |
| [08:38:38] | <omega8cc> | that one you have removed |
| [08:38:41] | <omega8cc> | yes |
| [08:38:44] | <anarcat> | ah |
| [08:38:47] | <anarcat> | no, i didn't know that |
| [08:38:53] | <anarcat> | i assumed that includes were context-sensitive |
| [08:39:03] | <anarcat> | and that you could include stuff in a server pragma |
| [08:39:07] | <anarcat> | and experiments i have done have confirmed that |
| [08:39:10] | <anarcat> | maybe i was mistaken |
| [08:39:39] | <omega8cc> | Nginx will fail if you will try to use variables for some settings |
| [08:39:58] | <omega8cc> | they nust be hardcoded to work, or they will not work |
| [08:40:05] | <anarcat> | for example, in my nginx.conf right now, i have an http {} block where there's a gzip block of configurations, which i can override |
| [08:40:12] | <anarcat> | my understanding is that this provides defaults to the whole server |
| [08:40:13] | <omega8cc> | that is why this config looks like it looks |
| [08:40:43] | <anarcat> | which i can override in server {} blocks, but i argue here that it is wrong to modify it in the server {} blocks when the admin has control over the http {} block, and *not* the server block |
| [08:40:48] | <omega8cc> | not all settings can be overriden and not all accept variables set in includes |
| [08:40:57] | <anarcat> | i understand that |
| [08:41:09] | <anarcat> | i just cited this as one way of doing things, maybe they can be done in other ways |
| [08:42:00] | <omega8cc> | that is why I want to show these problems using code, maybe I should just add more comments to explain why some thing are there, even if they looks stupid/duplicate or policy etc |
| [08:42:10] | <anarcat> | sure |
| [08:42:31] | <anarcat> | i think it's important to understand that i do not want to drop features, i just want to make sure we can disable or customize them |
| [08:42:41] | <anarcat> | and right now i feel this is impossible to do without forking provision |
| [08:42:50] | <omega8cc> | I understand that |
| [08:43:21] | <mig5> | for the record, and as mediator :) I just want to say: I think the current default nginx config offers a very good out of the box experience for most users. but I agree that there is a little too much baked into it - some of this I don't even mind, but even more importantly we need *docs* on how to workaround or override that, if possible |
| [08:43:23] | <anarcat> | i also believe that things like caching and compression shouldn't be enabled by default, both to match the current apache config but also to avoid making the admin dig into documentation to disable things that may create problems |
| [08:43:27] | <mig5> | eg 08:33 <@omega8cc> mig5: why to disable 5s microcaching? if you need to disable it, put header('X-Accel-Expires: 0'); in the global.inc |
| [08:43:30] | <mig5> | we need that in a doc |
| [08:43:37] | <omega8cc> | so I will add detailed comments to all settings and locations etc. so it will be clear if we can drop them or not etc |
| [08:43:50] | <anarcat> | okay |
| [08:44:01] | <anarcat> | feel free to answer in the issues, that is probably the right place |
| [08:44:22] | <anarcat> | but documentation (outside the issues - in the configs? in the handbook?) is also essential for settings that cannot be dropped |
| [08:44:33] | <mig5> | in the handbook, yes |
| [08:44:41] | <omega8cc> | yeah, there is too much to keep it just in comments on c.a.o |
| [08:44:51] | <omega8cc> | ok |
| [08:44:52] | <mig5> | i want to be able to read about the difference between these 'simple' and 'advanced' configs, etc. |
| [08:45:07] | <anarcat> | mig5: i have proposed to merge those - the only different was upload-progress support |
| [08:45:11] | <anarcat> | s/-/ / |
| [08:45:13] | <mig5> | we don't even yet have any docs on how to install nginx and php5-fpm for aegir |
| [08:45:18] | <mig5> | ah ok. |
| [08:45:35] | <mig5> | so we need a great big 'nginx' documentation section in the handbook, I think |
| [08:45:36] | <anarcat> | mig5: well, now we have :) http://community.aegirproject.org/discuss/aegir-2x-nginx-install-notes |
| [08:45:40] | <omega8cc> | mig5: the simple/advanced should be dropped/merged, as it is not really needed after we have switched rewrites to only modern |
| [08:45:59] | <anarcat> | the problem i have with having a lot of nginx documentation in the handbook is that it will be hard to maintain |
| [08:46:04] | <anarcat> | as it will duplicate the upstream documentation |
| [08:46:28] | <anarcat> | i prefer that people familirize themselves with upstream docs and learn how to customize their setup that to create an exotic configuration system |
| [08:46:36] | <anarcat> | with special defaults that differ from upstream |
| [08:47:02] | <anarcat> | someone running an nginx server on its own shouldn't be surprised by the configurations we are doing, and therefore they should be minimal |
| [08:47:22] | <anarcat> | now if some features require things to be added to the vhost, let's do that, but we need to know how to disable them |
| [08:47:50] | <anarcat> | so far i haven't found an example of such a feature, but you seem to be saying that microcaching is such a case, so i am ready to listen to that argument |
| [08:50:40] | <omega8cc> | ok, I will work on making it as generic as possible, moving as much as possible to documented includes/examples, so we will not break things on upgrade, with how-to related to stuff which either can't be removed or rather can't be included later because of some config limitations |
| [08:51:35] | <mig5> | i wouldn't even mind a default checked option in the server node 'use recommended nginx defaults', that can be switched off if the user is managing that stuff in /etc/nginx/conf.d/ or something |
| [08:51:49] | <mig5> | and maybe the template used to generate the config is a conditional based on that |
| [08:51:58] | <mig5> | this may not be the best idea of course, just throwing out ideas |
| [08:52:18] | <anarcat> | mig5: that is a great idea |
| [08:52:40] | <mig5> | eg if you turn it off, you are on your own, but that's ok |
| [08:52:51] | <omega8cc> | yeah, but note that we have it already broken - I mean those things are not updated on upgrade |
| [08:53:15] | <mig5> | hmm |
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| [08:53:39] | <omega8cc> | and it already caused a ton of issues we handled in the boa queue |
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| [08:55:28] | <omega8cc> | I mean http://drupal.org/node/1552430 |
| [08:55:30] | <hefring> | http://drupal.org/node/1552430 => Hostmaster upgrade/migrate doesn't update @server_master drush alias and web server config files => Provision, Code, critical, needs work, 16 comments, 2 IRC mentions |
| [08:55:51] | <mig5> | yeah |
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| [08:56:26] | <omega8cc> | so |
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| [08:56:35] | <mig5> | i am still confused there why a frontend verify is required :) |
| [08:56:42] | <mig5> | since your backend has the correct data, a backend verify should be enough |
| [08:57:47] | <anarcat> | indeed |
| [08:58:09] | <omega8cc> | mig5: I agree that we could get the best of both worlds with your idea about optional "use recommended config", so all existing installs could be upgraded w/o issues or switch to dictator-free mode |
| [08:58:32] | <mig5> | yeah. and it should remain the default, as they are generally good defaults |
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| [09:00:11] | <omega8cc> | this is similar to the other issue with aliases, but there the problem is that they are stored in the frontend |
| [09:00:17] | <mig5> | re: http://drupal.org/node/1552430, is it just that drush @hostmaster is verified, but server_master is not |
| [09:00:18] | <hefring> | http://drupal.org/node/1552430 => Hostmaster upgrade/migrate doesn't update @server_master drush alias and web server config files => Provision, Code, critical, needs work, 16 comments, 3 IRC mentions |
| [09:00:27] | <mig5> | maybe we just need an explicit backend provision-verify of @server_master |
| [09:00:30] | <mig5> | not just @hostmaster |
| [09:00:44] | <omega8cc> | hmm |
| [09:01:06] | <omega8cc> | I think I have tried that already |
| [09:01:13] | <mig5> | https://gist.github.com/2693467 |
| [09:01:16] | <mig5> | Running: /data/disk/o1/tools/drush/drush.php --force @hostmaster hosting-task 'server_master' 'verify' --backend 2>&1 [41.34 sec, [command] |
| [09:01:33] | <mig5> | that's why it works, but not because it's done via the frontend, just because it's not done in the backend at all |
| [09:01:41] | <mig5> | oh, you tried it? |
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| [09:01:53] | <mig5> | i may be talking out my arse, maybe it doesn't work :)( but i'm surprised |
| [09:01:55] | <omega8cc> | hmm, not sure then |
| [09:02:32] | <anarcat> | i will be going offline now |
| [09:02:41] | <mig5> | thanks anarcat |
| [09:03:06] | <omega8cc> | anarcat: thanks! |
| [09:04:47] | <omega8cc> | mig5: I have tried that and it didn't work |
| [09:05:14] | <omega8cc> | that is what I described at the top of that issue |
| [09:05:53] | <omega8cc> | that is the problem |
| [09:06:26] | <omega8cc> | the drush @server_master provision-verify doesn't update anything |
| [09:06:53] | <mig5> | hrm |
| [09:07:21] | <mig5> | that, I guess, is the bug, but it baffles me that the frontend can do so |
| [09:07:26] | <mig5> | after all it is only sending the same command to the backend |
| [09:07:31] | <mig5> | so either it works in the backend or it doesn't |
| [09:07:33] | <mig5> | strange |
| [09:08:10] | <mig5> | i will try and do some tests very soon |
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| [09:10:32] | <omega8cc> | yeah, something is definitely broken there, it doesn't make any sense why it needs frontend for anything there |
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| [09:11:40] | <omega8cc> | mig5: not sure if this could be related, but similar issue with similar "fix" - http://drupal.org/node/1004526 |
| [09:11:41] | <hefring> | http://drupal.org/node/1004526 => Automatic aliases are not persisted across rename and clone => Provision, Code, major, needs work, 35 comments, 5 IRC mentions |
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| [09:13:44] | <mig5> | hmm possibly. a similar communication issue between frontend and backend. so long ago now since I read this :) |
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| [09:17:49] | <omega8cc> | mig5: I have taken this opportunity to use my workaround and get both source and target platforms (and the site) re-verified automatically before/during the clone/migrate as people never do that |
| [09:19:28] | <omega8cc> | you know, people are lazy and always think *after*, or assume that you have already did that for them |
| [09:20:29] | <omega8cc> | so I did that, and our daily support queue is now much shorter ;) |
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| [09:35:36] | <realityloop> | omega8cc: any suggestions on how to go about removing octopus from a BOA instance so we can just use Barracuda? |
| [09:37:46] | <omega8cc> | realityloop: I didn't verify this, but there is a how-to: https://github.com/omega8cc/nginx-for-drupal/wiki/How-To-Delete-An-Octop... |
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| [09:38:39] | <realityloop> | omega8cc: thanks, I'll let you know how it goes |
| [09:38:44] | <omega8cc> | by AquaticDisorder |
| [09:38:46] | <omega8cc> | ok |
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