IRC logs for #aegir, 2012-09-10 (GMT)

‹ 2012-09-09
2012-09-11 ›
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[10:32:34]<mdelcx>hey all - is there a way to reconfigure my aegir install completely as during install?
[10:32:41]<mdelcx>(from package, ubuntu 12.04)
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[11:03:48]<realityloop>messages
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[14:30:20]<mdelcx_>hey all - im having trouble getting an aegir install to play nice with other non-aegir hosts
[14:30:50]<mdelcx_>its related to the redirect 404 / line
[14:30:59]<mdelcx_>in the generated apache.conf
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[14:34:52]<mdelcx_>i see the threads on implementing Redirect 404 / to solve a problem
[14:35:24]<mdelcx_>but for me it is preventing me from using aegir with non-aegir vhosts in /etc/apache2/site-enabled
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[14:59:03]<mdelcx_>any ideas?
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[15:01:03]<mdelcx_>reversing the order of when sites-enabled and conf.d get included seems to fix it
[15:01:11]<mdelcx_>but I dont know what other issues that could cause
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[18:31:22]<realityloop>darthsteven: ping
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[18:34:55]<darthsteven>I'm here, I'm here!
[18:35:03]<darthsteven>messages?
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[05:45:50]<ergonlogic>anarcat: so, as I said, darthsteven and I had some really good talks in Munich
[05:46:01]<anarcat>ergonlogic: that is great and amazing. :)
[05:46:02]<ergonlogic>along with a number of other contributors
[05:46:36]<ergonlogic>we were largely trying to figure out how to proceed with Aegir post 2.0
[05:46:45]<anarcat>i talked with the lakes and rivers of the north, along with a number of trees, chipmunks and mice :P
[05:47:06]<ergonlogic>and it occurred to us that a jump to D8 wasn't really feasible
[05:47:14]<ergonlogic>glad to hear it :p
[05:47:29]<anarcat>yeah, i also heard a few people had a similar objection to our current strategy
[05:47:46]<ergonlogic>basically, aegir is too central to people's infrastructure
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[05:48:08]<ergonlogic>and moving to D8 wouldn't allow enough stability before d6 in end-of-lifed
[05:48:24]<anarcat>indeed
[05:48:30]<anarcat>we should probably do a stopgap d7 port
[05:48:38]<ergonlogic>that's what we thought
[05:48:48]<ergonlogic>all that work would have to be done anyway
[05:48:52]<anarcat>i heard bgm made a semi-automated port of a kproject (unrelated) with relative success
[05:48:53]<ergonlogic>moving to entities, etc.
[05:48:59]<anarcat>well that's the thing
[05:49:04]<anarcat>we don't have to move to entities and all that
[05:49:27]<anarcat>we can focus on porting to d7 to survive the D6 EOL
[05:49:35]<ergonlogic>well, no... but then it remains essentially d5, even if it's running on d8
[05:49:38]<anarcat>especially since i fully expect D8 to move that under our feet
[05:49:59]<darthsteven>hefring: log pointer?
[05:49:59]<hefring>http://hefring.mig5.net/bot/log/aegir/2012-09-10#T267899
[05:50:03]<anarcat>so going crazy with entities as they are in D7 seems a bit premature when they will mature in d8
[05:50:03]<ergonlogic>hmm, perhaps
[05:50:15]<ergonlogic>darthsteven: hi steven
[05:50:19]<anarcat>i don't actually know anything about this however
[05:50:21]<darthsteven>anarcat: hello
[05:50:23]<darthsteven>ergonlogic: hello
[05:50:25]<anarcat>i just assume from experience
[05:50:27]<anarcat>hey darthsteven
[05:50:41]<darthsteven>enities and fields will be mostly the same in D8
[05:50:49]<darthsteven>nothing major for sure
[05:50:53]<ergonlogic>well, steven was saying that there's real benefit to re-qriting in d7 sooner, rather than later
[05:51:18]<darthsteven>yeah…we have sooo much legacy baggage
[05:51:35]<darthsteven>D7 really opens up lots of interesting things
[05:51:42]<darthsteven>but not if we don't use them
[05:52:16]<anarcat>hmm..
[05:52:18]<anarcat>okay
[05:52:24]<anarcat>well, i don't really mind either way
[05:52:34]<anarcat>i'm just worried about from scratch rewrites
[05:52:49]<anarcat>there's a lot of code out there, and our last rewrite (backend) didn't go out so well
[05:53:01]<bgm>my experience with entities: better to do a quick upgrade to D7 with everything else, then do upgrades towards entities. otherwise there's a long period where the dev branch is not usable.
[05:53:05]<anarcat>as we ended rewriting a full CRUD engine
[05:53:08]<ergonlogic>i think we're talking about leaving the backend alone, for now
[05:53:17]<anarcat>^^ what bgm says. :)
[05:53:30]<anarcat>i mean, we could even release 2.0 with a quick d7 port without entities
[05:53:47]<bgm>the main issue with d7 upgrade will probably be just the JS stuff, which should not be difficult
[05:53:51]<anarcat>ergonlogic: of course, i just used that as a straw man fallacy ;)
[05:53:51]<darthsteven>I promise that our D4.7 era code can't be upgraded quickly
[05:54:17]<anarcat>darthsteven: i don't think aegir ever ran in 4.7 :P
[05:54:20]<bgm>D4.7 code in the frontend?
[05:54:21]<anarcat>drush 4.7 maybe ;)
[05:54:21]<ergonlogic>well, we were also talking about shortening the release cycle too
[05:54:39]<anarcat>sure
[05:54:41]<darthsteven>well, it's D4.7 style code, even if it only ran on D5
[05:54:46]<ergonlogic>in order to allow more radical refactoring
[05:55:08]<darthsteven>We were also talking about moving large bits into contrib
[05:55:17]<darthsteven>such as DNS support
[05:55:21]<darthsteven>for example
[05:55:24]<ergonlogic>indeed
[05:55:35]* anarcat nods
[05:55:38]<ergonlogic>sorta aegir-smallcore
[05:55:39]<anarcat>okay
[05:55:44]* anarcat riots
[05:55:48]<darthsteven>we had a list
[05:55:49]<ergonlogic>:p
[05:55:55]<darthsteven>and I haven't written it up yet
[05:55:59]<darthsteven>shame on me
[05:56:01]<anarcat>we're a framework *AND* an application - don't you SEE?
[05:56:02]<anarcat>;)
[05:56:06]<darthsteven>heh
[05:56:43]<darthsteven>A clean D7 port could be seriously nice
[05:56:47]<anarcat>yes
[05:56:49]<darthsteven>i want
[05:56:52]<darthsteven>:)
[05:57:05]<anarcat>but i strongly agree with bgm that we should focus on a quick'n'dirty d7 port
[05:57:15]<anarcat>we should make sure we have that by say... august 2013? :P
[05:57:20]<ergonlogic>we were thinking of increasing the number of dependencies too
[05:57:39]<anarcat>that could make installs slower, but okay
[05:57:44]<anarcat>yay code reuse
[05:57:54]<darthsteven>things like, ahem views
[05:57:55]<ergonlogic>so we could strip out the custom lists in preference to Views, replace clients with OG, etc.
[05:57:56]<darthsteven>and vbo
[05:58:01]<anarcat>views? what's that?
[05:58:03]<anarcat>sql views? ;)
[05:58:04]<darthsteven>heh
[05:58:20]<anarcat>you want to port aegir to VB?? geez. ;)
[05:58:36]* gboudrias cringes
[05:58:38]<darthsteven>we want to remove the broken bits
[05:58:39]<ergonlogic>anarcat: installs of Aegir itself, you mean? that doesn't happen too often, though
[05:58:43]* anarcat runs away screaming at the idea of clients -> og
[05:58:48]<darthsteven>hah!
[05:58:51]<anarcat>ergonlogic: sure. just ranting. :)
[05:58:56]<darthsteven>it's an idea
[05:58:59]<anarcat>it is!
[05:59:09]<anarcat>i'm just generally scared of og
[05:59:17]<darthsteven>OG in D7 is a completely difference concept from D6
[05:59:20]<anarcat>but we should embrace the magic
[05:59:21]<ergonlogic>apparently the d7 version is pretty good
[05:59:25]<anarcat>awesome
[05:59:26]<bgm>those modules rewrite themselves at every major drupal version..
[05:59:33]<darthsteven>bgm: not true
[05:59:49]<darthsteven>bgm: D7 was a major turning point in Drupal-land
[05:59:50]<anarcat>right, they rewrite themselves *twice* for every major version
[05:59:59]<anarcat>:P
[06:00:04]<darthsteven>entities and fields changed everything
[06:00:20]<anarcat>yep
[06:00:25]<anarcat>and dbtng
[06:00:30]<ergonlogic>well, part of the problem is things like bits of clients code being sprinkled all over the place
[06:00:31]<anarcat>d7 is crazy
[06:00:34]<bgm>i'm waiting for the dust to settle on those projects :)
[06:00:46]<bgm>ubercart / commerce is another annoying set ..
[06:00:56]<ergonlogic>bgm: yep
[06:00:57]* bgm runs off to pickup kid from school :)
[06:01:33]<anarcat>alright
[06:01:38]<anarcat>i am happy you had those discussions!
[06:01:45]<darthsteven>(me too)
[06:01:47]<anarcat>you seem to have great ideas, and you have my full support :)
[06:01:56]<anarcat>i am not sure i will get involved deeply in the d7 port
[06:02:08]<anarcat>although i likely should, i feel i should fix that crazy backend
[06:02:20]<darthsteven>okay, well we're going to try to do everything in public of course
[06:02:31]<darthsteven>was thinking about the backend...
[06:02:39]<darthsteven>now that we support Drush 5
[06:02:44]<ergonlogic>so, there was also talk of moving architectural planning (assuming a d7 re-write) to Koumbit's redmine
[06:02:48]<darthsteven>we should add some proper functional and unit tests
[06:02:59]<darthsteven>and then we can 'fix' it
[06:03:20]<darthsteven>d.o issue trackers suck for managing a project
[06:03:48]<ergonlogic>now that gets back to that shorter release cycle...
[06:04:15]<ergonlogic>we were talking about sort of alternating freezes of the front-end and backend between releases
[06:04:27]<ergonlogic>so, refactor hostmaster for Aegir3
[06:04:37]<ergonlogic>then refactor provision for aegir4
[06:04:39]<anarcat>in other news: http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/10/godaddy-outage-takes-down-millions-of-s...
[06:04:40]<ergonlogic>kind of thing
[06:05:02]<anarcat>i feel unconfortable leaving d.o again
[06:05:18]<anarcat>i agree it sucks, but we could make clever use of tags and the wiki/handbook
[06:05:44]<darthsteven>it will still suck, but I don't want to run away from d.o if you don't want us to
[06:06:03]<anarcat>but inevitably, switching to redmine.koumbit.net will impede partipation
[06:06:14]<anarcat>as registration is not public (moderated)
[06:06:26]<anarcat>whereas anyone from the drupal community can participate on d.o
[06:07:57]<mvc>hmm, moving to koumbit's redmine sounds bad...
[06:08:21]<mvc>if d.o really doesn't cut it there's got to be a more public issue tracker out there we could use
[06:08:34]<ergonlogic>sure
[06:08:36]<mvc>rather than koumbit exerting too much ownership over this
[06:09:28]<darthsteven>okay, well we'll focus on the project itself rather than the project management
[06:09:29]<ergonlogic>we also discussed setting up redmine.aegirproject.org, if using koumbit's was a problem
[06:10:04]<ergonlogic>but that's an implementation detail :)
[06:10:07]<anarcat>well, the problem with redmine is account creation and the whole thing quickly gets spammed
[06:10:14]<anarcat>which is why it's moderated at koumbit
[06:10:24]<darthsteven>fair enough
[06:10:28]<darthsteven>we can manage
[06:10:44]<anarcat>yeah
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[06:12:40]<darthsteven>I should be able to spend at least 2 days a week on Aegir development
[06:12:52]<darthsteven>(for this)
[06:13:03]<ergonlogic>anyway, the gist of it is that there's a lot of technical debt to overcome, while maintaining some level of stability
[06:13:48]<ergonlogic>and a stepped approach to refactoring seemed reasonable
[06:13:57]<darthsteven>but we reckon that we can just build a lot of the current feature requests into the system as we go
[06:14:21]<darthsteven>and if we do this properly it's not going to be a major pain to say, host wordpress, or static sites too
[06:14:29]<darthsteven>once the backend can
[06:15:21]<anarcat>yep
[06:15:27]<anarcat>i can try to fight with the backend some more
[06:15:44]<anarcat>i already committed a full day, thanks to omega8, maybe i can try to squeeze more
[06:15:55]<anarcat>i'll be prioritizing my time soon, i just came back to work today
[06:16:00]<anarcat>i will certainly let you guys know
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[06:18:59]* mvc is happy to hear that people are ready to stop re-inventing tools like views :)
[06:19:20]<ergonlogic>another design goal we discussed (and was mentioned earlier) was to trim down Aegir to its essentials
[06:19:51]<ergonlogic>this should make it easier to maintain, and for new-comers to engage
[06:19:52]<darthsteven>mvc: if it's a list, it'll be a view
[06:20:57]* anarcat yays
[06:21:07]<darthsteven>I think we can be quite aggressive in moving stuff to 'contrib', and provide a way to list 'aegir' contrib from the core Aegir install, so that actually it's easier to find stuff that's out there
[06:21:15]<mvc>darthsteven: sounds like a good way to get ready for d8 w/ views in core
[06:21:34]<darthsteven>mvc: well, views is basically core now really
[06:21:37]<anarcat>d8 has views in core?
[06:21:44]<anarcat>isn't it views lite?
[06:22:00]<ergonlogic>anarcat: there's an initiative to get it in for d8
[06:22:02]<mvc>the goal is to get a bunch of it in there, not sure how much of it will land
[06:22:05]<ergonlogic>full views
[06:22:25]<mvc>i mean, it's like cck -- how often do you build a site without it?
[06:22:48]<anarcat>eh
[06:22:49]<mvc>any site too simple for views should likely not be built in drupal anyways
[06:24:11]<mvc>drupal's getting too complex for small little sites -- but i'll get off this here soapbox before someone starts throwing rotten fruit
[06:24:25]<anarcat>mvc: here's an apple, thanks! :)
[06:24:31]<anarcat>a *fresh* apple too! ;)
[06:24:37]* anarcat heads out for a real apple
[06:25:29]<ergonlogic>gboudrias and I have been looking at hosting_services recently, mostly in the context of the commerce re-write of uc_hosting
[06:25:51]<anarcat>ditching uc are we?
[06:25:59]<ergonlogic>but it could also make simplified/streamlined UIs for Aegir easier to implement
[06:26:14]<ergonlogic>not necessarily, and certainly not soon :p
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[06:27:14]<anarcat>okay
[06:27:31]<ergonlogic>steven, and others had mentioned a desire for a simpler UI, in Munich
[06:28:17]<ergonlogic>I think Services would be one way to do it
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[06:32:24]* ergonlogic off to pick up my kid too
[06:32:43]* darthsteven needs a kid?
[06:33:56]<benjf>you can have mine ;)
[06:39:26]<wamilton_>darthsteven: db credentials
[06:39:51]<wamilton_>darthsteven: have you had time with the patch?
[06:40:21]<darthsteven>wamilton_: I have not sadly
[06:40:26]<darthsteven>but I really will tomorrow!
[06:40:46]<wamilton_>darthsteven: excellent
[06:45:39]<darthsteven>finally getting a proper dev environment for Aegir sorted out
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[06:46:10]<wamilton_>oooo
[06:46:15]<wamilton_>did you document it?
[06:46:31]<wamilton_>I've been wondering what a valid environment for aegir would look like ;)
[06:46:49]<darthsteven>better than documenting it
[06:47:06]<darthsteven>it's a crush-vagrant blueprint
[06:47:13]<darthsteven>s/crush/drush
[06:47:31]<darthsteven>so you will be able to use it
[06:47:35]<wamilton_>how does vagrant invoke drush?
[06:47:38]<darthsteven>with just a few simple commands
[06:47:43]<darthsteven>other way around
[06:47:48]<darthsteven>drush invokes vagrant
[06:48:01]<wamilton_>0_0
[06:48:51]<darthsteven>it's ergonlogic's thing
[06:48:59]<darthsteven>I'm using it for the templates
[06:49:19]<darthsteven>so you'll be able to set up a new Aegir dev environment in a few minutes
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[06:49:26]<darthsteven>and then when you want another
[06:49:34]<darthsteven>that'll be another few minutes
[06:54:03]<wamilton_>cool
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[09:02:36]<sammm>hi, does aegir support drupal 7 or just 6?
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