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| [13:43:30] | <cweagans> | @ergonlogic: the DNS hasn't propagated yet. What's the TTL? |
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| [01:55:59] | <ergonlogic> | cweagans: it should be good as of around midnight, when i checked and saw it was still broken |
| [01:56:19] | <ergonlogic> | I just switched to an A record, as the cname wasn't working |
| [01:57:29] | <cweagans> | Awesome :) |
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| [02:40:51] | <ergonlogic> | cweagans: when you have the chance, could you please respond to the coord@ email I just sent? |
| [02:41:12] | <ergonlogic> | specifically about the goals and state of the redesign project |
| [02:41:31] | <ergonlogic> | but anything else you may want to add too :) |
| [02:42:21] | * ergonlogic added discuss@ and business@aegirproject.org mailing lists |
| [02:43:02] | <ergonlogic> | I'm open to suggestions for other top-level topics, but I think that should suffice for the time-being |
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| [02:43:25] | <ergonlogic> | along with develop@ and coord@, that is |
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| [03:12:15] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: http://take.ms/1NNBC |
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| [04:08:50] | <bgm> | is there a doc of the model that was discussed? i feel like i'm missing something.. |
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| [04:18:16] | <gboudrias> | bgm: Which model? For the new site? No cweagans is just starting |
| [04:18:19] | <gboudrias> | (afaik) |
| [04:18:38] | <cweagans> | bgm: which model? |
| [04:18:47] | <bgm> | gboudrias: no, the email discussions, which I feel are related to the financial model to fund the aegir project |
| [04:20:28] | <gboudrias> | Oh ok, I don't know |
| [04:21:50] | <cweagans> | bgm: gboudrias: I'm assuming you're talking about the email thread that nicholas replied to this morning. If you want, I'll forward you the entire email chain that led up to that, but I don't think it would be overly productive. the sparknotes version is that Nicholas had some very different ideas about how things should be done, and if we didn't do things his way, the entire world would end. specifically, he wanted us to host all of our |
| [04:21:50] | <cweagans> | own stuff and it had to be drupal and aegir and civicrm or aegir wouldn't be successful as a project (he said that - I'm not exaggerating). This was an objection to moving all of our web presence to places we didn't directly control (read the docs, stack exchange, etc). |
| [04:22:30] | <bgm> | ok |
| [04:22:51] | <cweagans> | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| [04:22:56] | <bgm> | I had some exchanges with nicholas regarding civicrm and things like that |
| [04:23:36] | <bgm> | he asked whether we should use civicrm for the aegir project, and obviously i said yes, because it's a good marketting tool to send security updates, newsletter, track users, fundraising, and offered to host it |
| [04:24:20] | <bgm> | but i assume it's not the #1 priority either :) |
| [04:24:57] | <bgm> | i'm pretty much in favor of using stackexchange. indifferet to read the docs, as long as the docs are in markdown in git, there are lots of alternatives if need be |
| [04:25:11] | <cweagans> | Sure, and I don't think anyone was disagreeing with that (the civi part). It does things pretty well (though I don't like to maintain it). The big thing is that we wanted to avoid taking on more things that we have to sink a bunch of time into maintaining. |
| [04:25:49] | <bgm> | yeah, agreed (that's why I was offering to host it in our SaaS, when ready / if aegir wants to go in that direction) |
| [04:26:18] | <cweagans> | our atrium site is a perfect example of why - upstream stops supporting something and then we're out in the cold. more importantly, we need to not be spending our time maintaining a bunch of infrastructure for the project - instead, we need to focus on building aegir :) |
| [04:26:46] | <bgm> | yep, unfortunately |
| [04:27:11] | <bgm> | and I think the Summit was a great opportunity to know better the community, since for the past years, there hasn't been much |
| [04:27:17] | <bgm> | so having mailing-lists will be nice |
| [04:28:41] | <bgm> | but what's the story with the FSF? |
| [04:28:57] | <bgm> | sure the FSF uses drupal/civi, but they have really limited resources |
| [04:36:06] | <bgm> | btw, not sure if this was noticed, but interesting move by BOA: https://twitter.com/omega8cc/status/625352955114450944 |
| [04:37:58] | <gboudrias> | bgm: Huh, interesting indeed |
| [04:38:42] | <bgm> | there are some civicrm extensions that get financed by having referal fees from third-parties |
| [04:38:56] | <bgm> | for example, CiviCRM LLC gets a % on all PayPal transactions |
| [04:39:34] | <bgm> | (paypal also contributes financially, I think, as a "tech partner") |
| [04:43:49] | <cweagans> | bgm: there was some talk about an aegir installation for the fsf and redoing the fsf website with Drupal (RMS plugged the latter during his keynote at NYCCamp) |
| [04:44:27] | <bgm> | oh ok |
| [04:44:35] | <cweagans> | nicholas was really pushing for us to be a part of that, but i'm not entirely sure why. |
| [04:45:13] | <cweagans> | i mean, it'd be cool for the fsf to use aegir. i'm just not sure why we need to be directly involved. |
| [04:45:37] | <bgm> | i feel like the FSF has a lot of technical debt |
| [04:45:44] | <bgm> | and very little resources |
| [04:45:50] | <gboudrias> | cweagans: bgm: We're still waiting for news from the sysadmins, but the RMS insisted that the fsf website in Drupal is not a done deal, just under consideration |
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| [04:46:08] | <gboudrias> | So I think they mostly don't need Aegir if they don't have fsf.org in Drupal |
| [04:46:25] | <gboudrias> | (I mean, afaik, but I don't really know how many Drupal sites they do have) |
| [04:46:26] | <bgm> | they probably don't really need Aegir either |
| [04:46:52] | <bgm> | afaik the only drupal site they have is the relatively simple CiviCRM instance they have (for mailings, events donations) |
| [04:47:25] | <bgm> | and there's an FSF menber who is packaging CiviCRM in Debian, which is kind of weird, but whatever.. |
| [04:47:38] | <bgm> | member* |
| [04:47:45] | <gboudrias> | RMS mentionned Drupal sites (plural) that need maintenance |
| [04:47:57] | <bgm> | oh ok |
| [04:48:05] | <gboudrias> | Maybe I should ping the sysadmins again |
| [04:48:11] | <bgm> | i'll ask their ED next time i see him on IRC |
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| [04:51:39] | <gboudrias> | I made the Aegir subverse on Voat btw, since it might be the next reddit: https://voat.co/v/aegir |
| [04:53:07] | <gboudrias> | (Not expecting much activity but better safe than sorry) |
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| [05:58:19] | <ergonlogic> | cweagans: your email was held because you aren't a member of the list. I've whitelisted you, but I think we should stick with the policy of generally only accepting post w/o moderation from list members. We can the whitelist non-spambots who don't want to joing the list for some reason. |
| [06:00:49] | <cweagans> | ah, okay. |
| [06:01:08] | <cweagans> | thanks for the heads up |
| [06:02:48] | <ergonlogic> | bgm: thanks for offering to host civi for the aegir project |
| [06:03:22] | <ergonlogic> | I'd suggested to nicholas that if he wanted to use/manage civi to promote the project, etc, that I was all for it |
| [06:03:44] | <ergonlogic> | but there's no point giving you extra work, if we don't have any concrete plans for it |
| [06:04:35] | <ergonlogic> | as for RMS, he'd expressed interest in having the fsf use aegir to manage their drupal sites |
| [06:05:08] | <ergonlogic> | gboudrias and I have offered to help with the Aegir side of things, should they go that direction |
| [06:05:44] | <ergonlogic> | but volunteering our own time, not on behalf of the Aegir project or anything official, or whatever |
| [06:07:00] | <bgm> | ergonlogic: ok, makes sense |
| [06:08:57] | * zz_kvanderw is now known as kvanderw |
| [06:09:39] | <ergonlogic> | between the mailing lists and aegir.hackpad.com, we should be able to follow-up on the various issues and opportunities to come out of the summit |
| [06:11:01] | <ergonlogic> | I'm going to go through some of the d.o issue queues and post coord threads for organizational stuff, so we can refocus our d.o queues on bug fixing, etc. |
| [06:11:27] | <bgm> | yep. although i will bug you eventually about civicrm for marketing, but I don't think it should be a priority right now |
| [06:11:41] | <ergonlogic> | like, I say, I'm all for it :) |
| [06:12:13] | <ergonlogic> | I just don't forsee having the time to manage outreach campaigns and such, in the immediate future |
| [06:12:22] | <bgm> | maybe after the website redesign or something, it will be good to have a "subscribe to our newsletter", so we start knowing who uses aegir |
| [06:12:40] | <ergonlogic> | yep |
| [06:12:47] | <bgm> | and you can sit on that info for a while, and just send announcements when there are major releases |
| [06:13:02] | <ergonlogic> | the donations functionality would be helpful too |
| [06:13:10] | <ergonlogic> | since right now we're a little spread out |
| [06:13:10] | <bgm> | yep |
| [06:13:37] | <bgm> | do donations go through a company? |
| [06:14:03] | <ergonlogic> | we'll be submitting aegir to the software freedom conservancy, at which point (eventually) we'll have a 501c3 backing us |
| [06:14:18] | <ergonlogic> | right now they go into a paypal account |
| [06:14:37] | <bgm> | ok, and the paypal account is not tied to anyone in particular? |
| [06:14:49] | <ergonlogic> | I'm not sure, actually |
| [06:14:56] | <ergonlogic> | I know that helmo has access to it |
| [06:15:03] | <bgm> | anyway, not a big issue, was just curious |
| [06:15:19] | <ergonlogic> | and i think the email it's linked to is @aegirproject.org |
| [06:15:51] | <ergonlogic> | I think at one time it was through Kt |
| [06:16:15] | <ergonlogic> | it may have been antoine or mig5 that set up the account to begin with |
| [06:16:38] | <ergonlogic> | but there's never been more than a couple hundred in there, at most |
| [06:16:53] | <bgm> | hopefully we'll make that go up :) |
| [06:20:39] | <ergonlogic> | I like the idea of funding maintenance by offering support |
| [06:20:56] | <ergonlogic> | which was essntially RMS's main suggestion |
| [06:21:45] | <bgm> | I'll sound like a broken record, but civi has custom fields in the issue queue for the funding source of issues |
| [06:21:48] | <ergonlogic> | clients are hapy to finance new features, but it's hard to justify bugfixes in a consulting contract |
| [06:21:56] | <bgm> | and if the core team doesn't take it, it can be assigned to a partner org |
| [06:22:03] | <bgm> | (if the client/user wants to sponsor it) |
| [06:22:26] | <ergonlogic> | that's through jira? |
| [06:22:29] | <bgm> | yep |
| [06:22:44] | <ergonlogic> | can you point me to an example? |
| [06:23:17] | <bgm> | 1 min |
| [06:24:03] | <bgm> | https://issues.civicrm.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20CRM%20AND%20... |
| [06:24:20] | <ergonlogic> | thanks, reading it now |
| [06:24:23] | <bgm> | https://issues.civicrm.org/jira/browse/CRM-16837 |
| [06:24:51] | <bgm> | here's an example of a specific issues that was opened by a partner (service provider), and who thought it would be more efficient to pay civi LLC to implement/fix it, rather than internally |
| [06:25:10] | <bgm> | and yeah, there's this doc: https://civicrm.org/issue-queue |
| [06:25:34] | <bgm> | it's pretty new though, in terms of process. we agreed to it in March |
| [06:26:29] | <bgm> | but basically, having "Funding source: { community, civi LLC, client } reminds people that this needs funding |
| [06:28:15] | <ergonlogic> | ok, so the actual estimate, and funding/payments is done offline |
| [06:28:24] | <ergonlogic> | odes it tie into the bounties? |
| [06:28:59] | <bgm> | offline, yep |
| [06:29:06] | <bgm> | bounties imho is a bad term |
| [06:29:27] | <ergonlogic> | well, there was a pledge format ro something for new features, no? |
| [06:29:41] | <bgm> | oh ok, the "make it happen" |
| [06:29:49] | <bgm> | but even those, they had specific budget targets |
| [06:29:53] | <ergonlogic> | right, sorry |
| [06:29:57] | <bgm> | if the target is not met, it was not implemented |
| [06:30:02] | <ergonlogic> | couldn't remember the name |
| [06:30:17] | <bgm> | those campaigns had mixed results, but mostly not very good |
| [06:31:07] | <bgm> | civivolunteer had a big campaign at some point, where an anonymous matching donor said he'd give 15k$ if it was matched |
| [06:31:29] | <bgm> | and then all the other civi shops started pitching in 100-500$ |
| [06:31:39] | <bgm> | + they had a big client who had already committed a few k$ |
| [06:31:47] | <bgm> | but that's really an exception, imho |
| [06:32:01] | <ergonlogic> | so, I kinda see new features and maintenance/bug-fixing as different |
| [06:32:47] | <ergonlogic> | I've been looking at something like: https://www.proxmox.com/en/proxmox-ve/pricing |
| [06:32:52] | <ergonlogic> | as an interesting model |
| [06:33:14] | <bgm> | buying support tickets? |
| [06:33:26] | <ergonlogic> | more or less |
| [06:33:39] | <ergonlogic> | this'd allow us to help users directly |
| [06:33:55] | <ergonlogic> | and give confidence to shops that they have a support lifeline |
| [06:34:09] | <bgm> | yep |
| [06:34:13] | <ergonlogic> | and focus our efforts there on bug-fixes and documentation |
| [06:34:27] | <ergonlogic> | new features can be referred |
| [06:34:51] | <ergonlogic> | like, it might me interesting to have aegirproject.com or something be a front for this |
| [06:34:56] | <bgm> | as long as the project is able to decline requests |
| [06:35:14] | <ergonlogic> | for new features? of course |
| [06:35:22] | <ergonlogic> | they'd mostly be in contrib anyway |
| [06:35:25] | <ergonlogic> | https://www.freepbx.org/support-2/ |
| [06:35:29] | <bgm> | yep |
| [06:35:43] | <ergonlogic> | i like the 'support provided by:' block there |
| [06:36:01] | <bgm> | does it rotate? |
| [06:36:07] | <ergonlogic> | also: https://www.bestpractical.com/services/hosting.html |
| [06:36:16] | <ergonlogic> | it looks like there's just the one, atm |
| [06:36:19] | <ergonlogic> | afaict |
| [06:36:41] | <ergonlogic> | I think a common toolset for support would be nice |
| [06:36:46] | <ergonlogic> | like hosted RT |
| [06:37:06] | <ergonlogic> | and we commit to queue coverage as supporting members |
| [06:37:37] | <ergonlogic> | we cover costs, and then any excess goes to other bugfixes and maintenance |
| [06:37:40] | <bgm> | on one hand, i'm not a fan of the multiplication of tools, but on the other, d.o queues really suck.. I guess it depends on the public though. for Aegir, it's mostly developers/sysadmins |
| [06:38:07] | <ergonlogic> | well, I'm talking about support, rather than just bug fixing |
| [06:38:21] | <ergonlogic> | bugs can till be tracked and fixed on d.o |
| [06:38:31] | <bgm> | right |
| [06:38:35] | <ergonlogic> | or perhaps github or something else for AegirNG |
| [06:38:38] | <bgm> | and non-paid support should be on SE |
| [06:38:42] | <ergonlogic> | right |
| [06:39:08] | <ergonlogic> | I like the idea of https://askbot.com/plans/ too |
| [06:39:37] | <ergonlogic> | $15/m for a private hosted SE from another FLOSS project |
| [06:39:44] | <bgm> | I guess one issue, is that ultimately the support will be referred to other companies |
| [06:39:55] | <ergonlogic> | show some solidarity with other projects trying to self-fund |
| [06:40:15] | <ergonlogic> | well, bigger contracts would, I figure |
| [06:41:38] | <bgm> | i mean, to put it otherwise: civicrm has "partners" who contribute financially to sustain the project (around 20-30% of the budget) |
| [06:42:00] | <bgm> | then civi provides references to partners, by promoting them and vouching (to some extent) their work |
| [06:42:25] | <ergonlogic> | right |
| [06:42:27] | <bgm> | so everyhing else can happen on the main issue queue, SE, etc |
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| [06:43:00] | <ergonlogic> | brb |
| [06:44:46] | <bgm> | although i guess if we "partners" gave money to aegir, we'd need a company to manage the money.. which is a big pita, unless Social source can handle that. |
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| [06:56:24] | <ergonlogic> | 'Social source'? |
| [06:56:56] | <bgm> | erm, isn't there a 501c3 that you had in mind? |
| [06:57:01] | <bgm> | (i forget their name) |
| [06:59:25] | <cweagans> | SF Conservancy |
| [06:59:39] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: Matthew told me about the Meteor JS support agreement. |
| [06:59:49] | <cweagans> | it'd be pretty cool to do something like that. |
| [06:59:57] | <cweagans> | it's $24k/year and you get unlimited support |
| [07:00:32] | <cweagans> | even if we only had one or two of those, it'd fund a really significant amount of aegir dev |
| [07:00:51] | <ergonlogic> | cweagans: that's nice, but completely outside the budget for 99% of our user base |
| [07:01:00] | <cweagans> | true. |
| [07:01:10] | <ergonlogic> | we can certainly have an 'Enteprise Support -- Call us' option though :) |
| [07:01:45] | <cweagans> | definitely. |
| [07:01:46] | <ergonlogic> | of course, we'd have to spell 'Enterprise' properly to be taken seriously :P |
| [07:01:57] | <cweagans> | ha, that would definitely help |
| [07:02:06] | <bgm> | just put a stock photo on it |
| [07:03:21] | <bgm> | ot, anyone know if this is a known bug: (while doing a new install on Debian Jessie) "Failed to start hosting-queued.service: Unit hosting-queued.service failed to load: No such file or directory." |
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| [07:04:10] | <ergonlogic> | so that'd be systemd, right? |
| [07:04:14] | <bgm> | yep |
| [07:04:19] | <ergonlogic> | gboudrias and helmo were working on that |
| [07:04:41] | <ergonlogic> | https://www.drupal.org/node/2347557 |
| [07:04:43] | <hefring> | https://www.drupal.org/node/2347557 => No systemd service file for queue runner [#2347557] => 9 comments, 2 IRC mentions |
| [07:05:30] | <ergonlogic> | looks like we'll need to upgrade the CI server |
| [07:06:10] | <bgm> | ah, that works (patch from #3) |
| [07:06:16] | <bgm> | thanks |
| [07:07:33] | <ergonlogic> | cool |
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| [07:45:13] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: at some point, we should probably consider reaching out to Jon to see how we can fit Terra into things. |
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| [07:45:44] | <cweagans> | I have a pretty good picture of how it can fit, but we should probably talk with him about it too |
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