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| [00:34:33] | <ergonlogic> | cweagans: pinbg |
| [00:34:50] | <ergonlogic> | ugh... it's going to be one of *those* days |
| [00:35:29] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: half-pong. Just rolled out of bed. |
| [00:35:29] | <hefring> | cweagans: 1 day 21 hours ago <ergonlogic> tell cweagans I'd like to discuss Aegir Coop status and next steps at tomorrow's scrum, if you can make it |
| [00:35:43] | <cweagans> | well alright then |
| [00:35:47] | <cweagans> | >.< |
| [00:35:51] | <ergonlogic> | oh right, you're out West |
| [00:36:00] | <ergonlogic> | anyway, it can wait |
| [00:36:14] | <ergonlogic> | but please ping me when you have a bit of time |
| [00:36:30] | <cweagans> | nbd. I'm around. Just only semi-coherent at this point while I wait for the caffeine to hit my brain. |
| [00:39:00] | <ergonlogic> | ok |
| [00:39:07] | <ergonlogic> | so, a couple things |
| [00:39:21] | <ergonlogic> | first there's the Aegir Coop stuff |
| [00:39:44] | <ergonlogic> | the gist of which is in the IRC logs from yesterday, and the email I just sent to the business@ list |
| [00:40:17] | <ergonlogic> | but I'd kind of like to talk aegirng next steps, actually |
| [00:40:52] | <ergonlogic> | with frigg, I've got a pretty easy deployment to a working openshift in a local vagrant vm |
| [00:41:13] | <ergonlogic> | pretty much right through deploying a drupal site |
| [00:41:27] | <cweagans> | ah, awesome, okay. |
| [00:41:31] | <cweagans> | hefring: log pointer? |
| [00:41:31] | <hefring> | http://hefring.mig5.net/bot/log/aegir/2016-01-29#T607277 |
| [00:41:33] | <ergonlogic> | still all super basic |
| [00:42:06] | <ergonlogic> | but I'd like to chat a bit about where to go from here |
| [00:44:57] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: Okay, I'm not sure I'll be much help wrt the coop, largely because I'm 99% sure there are some significant differences between a coop in Canada and a coop in the US, and I'm not even that clear on how US coops work :P |
| [00:45:13] | <ergonlogic> | right |
| [00:45:34] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: That said, a quick look at the bylaws all looks reasonable to me. I don't see anything glaringly wrong or anything. |
| [00:45:40] | <ergonlogic> | I'm going to sprinkle links to the Québec laws that govern coops throughout those docs |
| [00:46:37] | <ergonlogic> | I'm fine with continuing to push them forward, but we'll need to have an inaugural general assembly to adopt the bylaws within a couple months of registering the coop |
| [00:47:36] | <ergonlogic> | so we're going to need to start meeting more regularly to move it forward, imo |
| [00:47:44] | <cweagans> | Okay, cool. |
| [00:48:09] | <ergonlogic> | ideally, we'll have the drafts in a good enough state that the GA is just the adopting part |
| [00:48:39] | <ergonlogic> | at some point, I'd like to go over the business plan and such too |
| [00:48:50] | <ergonlogic> | and make sure everyone is on-board |
| [00:49:04] | <ergonlogic> | or rather, to what extent everyone is on-board |
| [00:49:27] | <cweagans> | Okay. Do you want to set up those meetings now? Or wait? |
| [00:49:47] | <ergonlogic> | Herman also agreed, but we haven't set a regular time yet |
| [00:50:12] | <ergonlogic> | I figure after the weekly scrum might be a good place to start |
| [00:50:25] | <ergonlogic> | since that usually only take ~15m these days |
| [00:50:27] | <cweagans> | Okay. The morning aegir checkin is problematic for me these days because my morning meeting at work got moved to the same time :( |
| [00:50:35] | <ergonlogic> | hmm, ok |
| [00:51:04] | <ergonlogic> | well, most of us are in NA, so my main concern is ensuring that helmo can make it |
| [00:51:16] | <ergonlogic> | since he's furthest off our time zones |
| [00:51:46] | <ergonlogic> | anyway, we'll work it out |
| [00:53:42] | <ergonlogic> | hefring: tell helmo When would you like to schedule the coop calls? You and @cweagans are the two extremes, in terms on time-zones, afaict. Could the two of you suggest some times that can work for the both of you? |
| [00:53:42] | <hefring> | ergonlogic: I'll pass that on when helmo is around. |
| [00:53:52] | <ergonlogic> | cweagans: ^^^ ok? |
| [00:53:58] | <cweagans> | works for me |
| [00:54:05] | <ergonlogic> | alright |
| [00:54:12] | <ergonlogic> | as for aegirng |
| [00:55:08] | <cweagans> | Even an hour later would be fine for me. It's just *that* timeslot that's messed up :( |
| [00:55:19] | <ergonlogic> | ok, good to know |
| [00:55:55] | <ergonlogic> | so, frigg is basically some bash scripts to spin up osc |
| [00:56:31] | <ergonlogic> | I've tried to compartmentalize functionality, figuring it'll eventually be turned into a real tool |
| [00:57:24] | <ergonlogic> | on that front, I'm thinking of re-writing it in go |
| [00:57:48] | <ergonlogic> | since pretty much the rest of the stack is in go, and I'm not yet familiar with the language |
| [00:58:19] | <ergonlogic> | basically, it'd be the equivalent of Valkyrie for aegirng |
| [00:58:30] | <cweagans> | Heh, I'm in the same boat. I've been looking for an excuse to dive in and wrap my head around it (Go, I mean) |
| [00:58:50] | <ergonlogic> | there are some nice cli libs, among other things |
| [00:58:57] | <ergonlogic> | cobra/viper, iirc |
| [00:59:08] | <ergonlogic> | which are used in osc |
| [00:59:17] | <ergonlogic> | so some experience thae |
| [00:59:21] | <ergonlogic> | brb |
| [00:59:58] | <ergonlogic> | sorry |
| [01:00:46] | <ergonlogic> | ok, so I figure some experience with the libs that osc/k8s are written in will make upstream contributions that much easier |
| [01:00:57] | <ergonlogic> | but that's more long term |
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| [01:01:47] | <ergonlogic> | I also don't want to waste time writing a real cli in bash |
| [01:02:05] | <ergonlogic> | especially since I'm not sure that frigg even has a long-term value |
| [01:02:43] | <ergonlogic> | I *think* it does, but I think moving forward with a couple other things first would perhaps be more worthwhile |
| [01:03:43] | <ergonlogic> | the other things being developing the scripts that will allow a d8 site to actually be installed |
| [01:03:51] | <ergonlogic> | rather than just deployed |
| [01:04:11] | <ergonlogic> | which'll involve getting drush into that install, etc. |
| [01:05:02] | <ergonlogic> | right now, it'll get you up to install.php |
| [01:05:30] | <ergonlogic> | in parallel, I figure to start on the front-end bits |
| [01:06:00] | * zz_drakythe is now known as drakythe |
| [01:06:26] | <ergonlogic> | which'll involve some NFS magic, I believe, to avoid having to ssh into the box, then docker exec bash, or whatever |
| [01:06:59] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: wrt frontend, I've been very impressed lately by Gogs and Drone, both of which are web apps that are written in Go. The memory required to run them is stupidly low, and deployment is very simple (i.e. copy the compiled binary to the server and run it). I've been toying with the idea of suggesting that we write the Aegir NG frontend app with Go too, but idk. |
| [01:07:18] | <ergonlogic> | it'd also be nice to take more of a BDD/TDD approach here |
| [01:07:31] | <cweagans> | ^ yeah, that. |
| [01:07:44] | <ergonlogic> | so, here's the thing... |
| [01:07:57] | <ergonlogic> | where does Aegir's value realy lie here |
| [01:08:00] | <ergonlogic> | ? |
| [01:08:15] | <ergonlogic> | currently, we do everything |
| [01:08:28] | <ergonlogic> | and we're moving towards doing almost nothing |
| [01:09:11] | <ergonlogic> | I think one place that we could provide value is in Drupal integration |
| [01:09:17] | <cweagans> | Yeah, but "do everything" isn't really a sustainable thing. "Do nothing" is the opposite end of the spectrum, but it's a much better place to be in than the alternative, because by doing nothing, you can see where the gaps in functionality are pretty easily and start slowly filling in those gaps. |
| [01:09:27] | <cweagans> | Perhaps by adding Drupal integration, as you said :) |
| [01:09:42] | <ergonlogic> | right, I'm all for doing less :p |
| [01:10:18] | <ergonlogic> | but drupal integration allows osc to be extended with e-commerce, for example |
| [01:10:46] | <ergonlogic> | without having to write a whole new app just for that |
| [01:10:57] | <cweagans> | That's true. I think there's a lot of value in providing specific workflows for specific applications on Kubernetes/Openshift, and in providing specific deployment scenarios that people can just use. |
| [01:11:08] | <ergonlogic> | right |
| [01:11:30] | <ergonlogic> | I figure another place to focus in on the Drupal-specific deployment scripts and such |
| [01:11:31] | <cweagans> | i.e. "I want to deploy a HA Drupal instance" rather than "I need to deploy a cluster of mysql containers and figure out how to get them talking and dial in the settings for php-fpm and nginx and then I can add Drupal and then....etc." |
| [01:11:55] | <ergonlogic> | right |
| [01:12:13] | <cweagans> | And the same can be said for other apps too. But that's where I see Aegir's value - usability on top of a really solid foundation. |
| [01:12:19] | <cweagans> | brb |
| [01:12:20] | <ergonlogic> | with a powerful backend, that can (relatively) easily be extended to every other app out there |
| [01:12:39] | <ergonlogic> | ok, so we're on the same page, I think |
| [01:12:50] | <ergonlogic> | I'm going to continue rambling... |
| [01:13:43] | <ergonlogic> | anyway, I figure Rán's Ansible stuff can help there |
| [01:14:06] | <ergonlogic> | in terms of being able to deploy osc/k8s, as well as spin up infra, etc. |
| [01:14:23] | <ergonlogic> | though it might be interesting to look at terraform for some of that too |
| [01:15:02] | <ergonlogic> | so, I'm thinking of starting 'kubernetes' and 'openshift' projects on d.o |
| [01:15:31] | <ergonlogic> | that are basically php wrappers around their respective rest apis |
| [01:16:05] | <ergonlogic> | and some entity integration, with a 'remote entity' model |
| [01:17:04] | <ergonlogic> | as of last month, I hadn't found any good php libs for those |
| [01:17:48] | <ergonlogic> | so I was thinking that it might be interesting to make those stand-alone composer-enabled libs |
| [01:17:58] | <ergonlogic> | rather than build them into drupal modules |
| [01:18:28] | <ergonlogic> | then the drupal modules could include those, and focus on the remote entity stuff |
| [01:18:44] | <ergonlogic> | then aegir is the ui/workflow stuff that ties that all together |
| [01:19:35] | <ergonlogic> | on the flip side, I think some Rán-osc/k8s stuff might be interesting too |
| [01:20:24] | <ergonlogic> | much of osc/k8s is driven by yaml config files, and cli commands |
| [01:20:57] | <ergonlogic> | I'm not certain that the rest apis really expose everything we'd need |
| [01:21:55] | <ergonlogic> | Rán is basically a way to write config files, based on Drupal nodes/fields, then run a command, and gather the shell output |
| [01:22:30] | <ergonlogic> | right now, it only does that with ansible, but then it's only a couple hundred lines of code, if that |
| [01:23:51] | <ergonlogic> | btw, I've been hearing from some large institutional/gov't prospects that containers are still over the horizon for them |
| [01:24:17] | <ergonlogic> | and that they're liking Aegir exactly for it's more classical approach to provisioning |
| [01:24:57] | <ergonlogic> | Rán should actually allow for a re-implementation of those workflows while still shedding a bunch of code |
| [01:25:45] | <ergonlogic> | so I'm starting to think that aegirng should really be a parallel project, rather than "aegir4" |
| [01:25:49] | <ergonlogic> | per se |
| [01:26:09] | <ergonlogic> | within the Aegir Project, of course |
| [01:26:19] | <ergonlogic> | but it really is 'next-gen' |
| [01:26:48] | <ergonlogic> | that's one of the reasons I started with 'Frigg' |
| [01:27:04] | <ergonlogic> | who, in Norse mythology, was Odin's wife |
| [01:27:15] | <ergonlogic> | just as Rán was Aegir's |
| [01:29:05] | <ergonlogic> | anyway, I'd mostly like to avoid simply calling aegirng the 4.x branch of Aegir, because I feel that ties our hands as far as the current approach goes |
| [01:29:24] | <ergonlogic> | and doesn't really capture the extent of the shift |
| [01:31:05] | <ergonlogic> | back on the php lib wrappers, one benefit there would be a broader community of contributors, as they could easily be re-used by other php apps |
| [01:31:19] | <ergonlogic> | including, for example, Drush |
| [01:32:52] | <ergonlogic> | though I'm still pretty committed to just using Drush (and Drupal Console), rather than building any significant tooling atop them |
| [01:34:46] | <ergonlogic> | so, bringing this back to the more immediate... |
| [01:35:56] | <ergonlogic> | cweagans: do you think starting on php-openshift and php-kubernetes libs, and accompanying drupal projects makes sense as a next step? |
| [01:37:41] | <ergonlogic> | I guess I still see Aegir's value as consistent with what it is now |
| [01:38:18] | <ergonlogic> | we're mostly shifting from talking to mysql and apache/nginx, to talking to the container stacks |
| [01:38:49] | <ergonlogic> | but we'll still be looking to provide pre-packaged use-case-focused tools |
| [01:39:14] | <ergonlogic> | that encode the best practices of our community, as well as those further down the stack |
| [01:40:04] | <ergonlogic> | so basically, lowering the barriers to entry for using these powerful tools securely and reliably |
| [01:46:49] | <ergonlogic> | one reason I like the idea of keeping Frigg around as part of this tool-chain, is exectly that entry-point into using this stack |
| [01:47:01] | <cweagans> | Back, few replies incoming: |
| [01:47:33] | <cweagans> | Re kubernetes/openshift libs/modules: General +1 there. Having solid Composer libs for those things would be awesome, and it's very simple to build a module around composer libs. |
| [01:47:57] | <ergonlogic> | basically to start using Aegir, etc. you download a go binary, which'll launch a local web-based UI that'll allow you to deploy a cloud cluster, etc. |
| [01:48:28] | * gandhiano has joined #aegir |
| [01:51:30] | <cweagans> | Re Aegir NG vs Aegir 4.x: I'm not sure we should make a distinction there. Aegir 3 could remain supported for a long while. If we really want to have an even longer term LTS, we could rebuild Aegir as Aegir 4 on top of Ansible, the queue runner thing in Rán, and basically the same kinds of approaches as <= Aegir 3.x (i.e. write apache config files, kick apache, etc), but I'm not sure I see a lot of value in going that way given that |
| [01:51:30] | <cweagans> | Aegir 3 will extend well into the time period where people really should be moving toward a better methodology anyway. Personally, I'm inclined to just say "use Aegir 3.x if you want a more classical provisioning methodology and use Aegir 4.x otherwise", but I guess I don't have a very strong conviction about that, so we can do it either way. |
| [01:52:14] | <cweagans> | re cli tooling: +1 to using whatever works for the app we're building workflows for. For Drupal apps, I think it makes a ton of sense to include Drush and/or Drupal Console and build the workflows on top of that. Definitely do not want to reimplement that stuff. |
| [01:52:39] | <cweagans> | Re Frigg: big +1 to "dl a go binary, run it, and click through the installer to get things working" |
| [01:53:17] | <cweagans> | that's very similar to what Flynn does to bootstrap a cluster on AWS, Digital Ocean, or Rackspace - you download Flynn locally, start the installer service, and click through a web ui and it's wonderful. |
| [01:54:00] | <cweagans> | If we build the installer on top of Ansible, it also provides a way for someone to just pick up the roles out of the installer and drop them into their own set of playbooks, which is something that's really important to me |
| [01:54:26] | <cweagans> | (i.e. I hate running app installers on a one-off basis. I want to provision everything with my Ansible playbooks and not have to do any manual work) |
| [01:54:50] | <ergonlogic> | right |
| [01:55:21] | <ergonlogic> | in Valkyrie, I actually install Ansible first, using a little bootstrap script, then do everything else via Ansible |
| [01:55:38] | <ergonlogic> | I'd prefer a similar approach in Frigg |
| [01:56:50] | <ergonlogic> | where, right now, I'm running a bunch of bash commands over ssh |
| [01:58:39] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: On that note - have you seen the ansible_local provisioner that's in Vagrant now? You don't have to install Ansible manually anymore :) |
| [01:58:51] | <ergonlogic> | oh nice! |
| [01:58:53] | <ergonlogic> | I hadn't |
| [01:58:57] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: And like the other provisioners, if ansible isn't installed, ansible_local will try to install it for you as well. |
| [01:59:06] | <ergonlogic> | though I'd perused the issue about it a while back |
| [01:59:09] | <cweagans> | (but many baseboxes have it pre-packaged now) |
| [01:59:32] | <ergonlogic> | all the better |
| [02:00:00] | <ergonlogic> | though I've found that Ansible's versioning to be a little weak |
| [02:00:18] | <ergonlogic> | that is API changes in what should be patch releases, for example |
| [02:02:08] | <ergonlogic> | but as long as we have a consistent target version in the VM and on any cloud infra, etc. we should be ok |
| [02:03:07] | <cweagans> | Yeah, I've seen that too, though it seems to have tightened up quite a bit lately. |
| [02:03:34] | <cweagans> | Not so many weird breakages when I update ansible and such |
| [02:04:37] | <cweagans> | Nice thing is, though, that we can package a specific version of Ansible in a container, run the playbooks in that container, and then that way, we have full control over the environment that the playbooks get run it |
| [02:04:38] | <cweagans> | in* |
| [02:05:25] | <ergonlogic> | true |
| [02:07:08] | * gandhiano has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) |
| [02:07:17] | <ergonlogic> | so, atm, in frigg, it's building the site off of a beta drupal code-base in git, iirc |
| [02:07:25] | <ergonlogic> | which kinda sucks |
| [02:07:38] | <ergonlogic> | but from a bootstrapping stand-point works |
| [02:08:10] | <ergonlogic> | I think I'll probably continue to cheat on that for now, and figure out what a 'real' Drupal deployment should look like later |
| [02:08:57] | <ergonlogic> | I think I'd found a osc hook script where we could just hardcode some default db creds or whatever, to get things going |
| [02:10:43] | <ergonlogic> | anyway, fwiw, I'm really liking osc |
| [02:11:00] | <ergonlogic> | everything about it, and k8s, make a lot of sense |
| [02:11:09] | <ergonlogic> | there are lots of new concepts |
| [02:11:50] | <ergonlogic> | but they appear to address challenges we've already faced, or thought of, nicely |
| [02:12:52] | <ergonlogic> | pods, services, routing, group policies, etc. |
| [02:13:11] | <ergonlogic> | it's all still a but magic |
| [02:13:43] | <ergonlogic> | bit* |
| [02:22:13] | <ergonlogic> | cweagans: so, thanks for the feedback. Looks like I'm on the right track. I'd appreciate your feedback on frigg, etc. on an ongoing basis. As time permits, of course :) |
| [02:22:57] | <ergonlogic> | I don't have much free time to work on this stuff atm either, so volume should be pretty low |
| [02:24:35] | <cweagans> | ergonlogic: Sounds great. If I have some time, I may look at starting on a kubernetes/openshift composer package in the near-ish future, as that's a pretty clear, high-value thing to get done. |
| [02:25:06] | <ergonlogic> | that'd be great! |
| [02:25:27] | <ergonlogic> | let me know when, as I'd like to see that from the ground up |
| [02:37:34] | <jonpugh> | Not to rain on your parade cweagans but there are 3 :) https://packagist.org/search/?q=kuber |
| [02:38:45] | <jonpugh> | there's nothing on openshift in packagist but i did find https://github.com/hasinhayder/openshift-php-client |
| [02:40:32] | <cweagans> | jonpugh: So there is. https://packagist.org/packages/sroze/kubernetes-client looks like the only one that I'd actually trust though. One of the other ones has "Not recommended for use" as a heading in the readme and the other is a 0.x release. That OS client, though, is for old openshift |
| [02:40:36] | <cweagans> | i.e. pre-Kubernetes |
| [02:41:47] | <cweagans> | jonpugh: I hadn't looked, though. I was just going off of what ergonlogic said about there not being any currently available ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| [02:42:22] | <cweagans> | in any case, having good libraries available (regardless of who wrote them) makes it that much easier to start building modules around them that provide remote entities and such. |
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| [03:32:27] | <ergonlogic> | ooh, good find: sroze/kubernetes-client |
| [03:32:49] | <ergonlogic> | that was only posted in oct, so it wasn't around last time I looked |
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